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Post by flyingteapot on Jan 19, 2012 9:55:33 GMT
My response to what you're saying here is the same as what I said befotre, which is that I find it far fetched that a human being can address the issue of the existence or otherwise of a creator without any feelings about it. Lets replace the word 'creator' with the word 'unicorn' in your sentence. What feelings do you have regarding the existence of a unicorn? My feelings regarding the existence of a creator is that it is unlikely, but it is possible. There are literally infinite explanations for the universe and a creator is just one of the many. You and I look at it from different perspectives. I don't think about the universe being CREATED. You are presupposing that the universe was created somehow. That implies that a sentient being was behind it. If you look at it objectively, you think the universe was created and I think we don't know how it came into existence. Your theory has no evidence for it and yet you are certain that there is a creator. I am not willing to make that leap of faith as you are. It has nothing to do with feelings. I feel wonder at the size of the universe and our place in it. I think you are not understanding what I am trying to tell you. This has nothing to do with ideals. Yes I am a thinking human being and I feel wonder at the hugeness of the universe and our part in it. I ponder about how the universe came into existence. It could have been created or there was a big bang or some other thing happened. How did life start? etc.We don't know yet. But I am unwilling to attribute these things to a creator. We have no evidence to back that up. It does not mean I have no feelings about it, it just means I don't know.
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Post by Worldquest on Jan 19, 2012 12:56:25 GMT
I understand now and I see what's going on. You've been confusing what I've been saying with something quite different. What I'm saying to you is that it is far fetched that one could ponder the existence or otherwise of a creator and have no feelings about that, no feelings about the implications either way. If a creator does exist, and let's say you became convinced, don't tell me you wouldn't have feelings about that. You marvel at the universe, how much more would you marvel if you were convinced that there is a creator behind it.
I marvel at the fact that the universe is a manifestation of a "creator" and I have feelings about that. You marvel at the fact that the universe is an uncreated thing that somehow just happened and managed to give rise to everything we see, and you have feelings about that. You think that's amazing. Or don't you? My point is, and I hope it's becoming clear now, that the issue of whether or not there's a god is absolutely not one which comes without some emotional response. It's too huge an issue with massive implications, unlike a unicorn. That's why I'm sure you'd get some satisfaction if you ever managed to convince me that there's no god, and why I'd get the same satisfaction if I ever managed to convince you that there is. We both know that the chances of that happening are slim, yet here we are regardless. What's driving us? We feel strongly about our views and we can't help it. Yet you're saying that you have no feelings about it.
I have evidence that there's a god. I'd like you to try and resist the urge to ask me what that evidence is because I want to make a really specific point about this, which is that I do base my views on evidence. It may not be evidence that I can show you but to me it is evidence. I don't believe that there's a god simply because of wishful thinking, I have actually thought it through and used some reasoning. What I'm saying to you is that we both use evidence and reasoning (no matter how at odds they are to each other). I admit that my reasoning and evidence is coloured by emotions. But so are yours. The "A" in Atheism refers to the lack of a god, it doesn't refer to the lack of emotion that contributes to that view. Are there atheists whose view is based on some feeling that the universe is a cold, uncreated thing? I mean someone who just looks at the universe and "feels" that there's no god? Certainly. I put it to you that there's more than just a little of that in all atheists.
I'm sorry but if you're trying to convince me that your atheist view is based on nothing but evidence (or lack) and that feelings play no part in the forming of your views, I don't buy it. You would have to be an unusual human being for that to be true. Actually you'd have to be pretty lifeless as a person and not have much of a personality. This isn't about evidence or lack of it, this is about the fact that feelings play a big role in forming people's opinions. I may not have evidence to satisfy you (but then again my conviction is not your conviction * ), but I have feelings about the issue and so do you and that makes us equal. There's a saying which goes, seeing is believing. It's actually often the other way round. Believing is seeing.
* The word evidence is closely linked to the word conviction.
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Post by flyingteapot on Jan 19, 2012 15:10:45 GMT
I marvel at the fact that the universe is a manifestation of a "creator" and I have feelings about that. You marvel at the fact that the universe is an uncreated thing that somehow just happened and managed to give rise to everything we see, and you have feelings about that. You think that's amazing. Or don't you? I do find it amazing that The Big Bang gave rise to everything we see today. And my point is that god is an explanation for a deeper question. It is this deeper question that I am talking about. Man has always been curious about the unknown. It is this deeper question that I am talking about. You say we came from god, I say we don't know. The question is not whether there is a god or not. The question is "where do we come from?" That is the fundamental question that every human being has. I am sure you'd get some satisfaction from managing to convince me there is a god. But I have no such desire. I don't know whether there is a god or not, and have no reason to think there is. Yours is a claim, mine is a response to your claim. You claim there is a creator. My response is Okay, I don't know about that. Prove it to me. I most certainly never stated that I have no feelings regarding this. Don't keep putting words into my mouth. I feel strongly about my views and so do you. But you are unable to accept my view for whatever reason.
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Post by Worldquest on Jan 19, 2012 15:38:05 GMT
I absolutely accept your view. You believe or are inclined to believe that this is a godless universe and I take that view seriously. I believe you when you say that you have that view. That's not the argument here. My argument is simply that our views about matters so huge cannot be uncoloured by emotion. If there's a god, you would have to have a major rethink about a lot of things, and we are all subject to inertia when it comes to forming and keeping our views, or challenging them. What I mean is that I look at the universe and feel that there's a creator, and you look at it and feel that it is devoid of a creator. I rationalize but guess what, so do you. I don't base that (the idea of us all having emotions about the existence or otherwise of god based largely on emotion) on knowing you, I base it on human nature. If we can be extremely subjective and subject to emotion when it comes to our favourite chocolate, how much more can we be when it comes to the very nature of the entire universe. If you're capable of having a strong desire to question and ponder the universe in the first place, then you are more than capable of having some feeling one way or the other. This isn't a petty topic, it's huge. We're both being extremely subjective. I'm not saying that you don't have reasonable grounds to doubt the existence of god, in fact, if you listed your reasons I would probably understand them quite well and even be able to relate to them. And if I listed my reasons to believe in god, and you put yourself in my shoes and tried to see at least some logic in my thinking, you could probably do the same. It's certainly not intelligence that separates us, I think you're intelligent and I hope you think I am too. So what separates us? What's going on? Why the huge gap in opinion? Emotion. It can't be access to information because I will always rationalize no matter what you say to me and most likely vice versa. I feel that there's a god, you feel that it's just a meaningless universe. It feels that way to you. Sorry for putting words into your mouth but that's how it seems to me, I can't believe that you are exempt from this.
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Bayes
Full Member
Posts: 206
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Post by Bayes on Jan 19, 2012 17:00:22 GMT
A creator would not necessarially involve a major rethink. God the utterly indifferent, the prime mover, the eternal architect who is NOT interested in the minute details of the creation is not much different from a godless universe as far as the consequences for each of us living in the universe. It is a personally interested deity that creates major consequences as far as we are each concerned, and that is a much shakier proposition.
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Post by flyingteapot on Jan 19, 2012 20:21:59 GMT
A creator would not necessarially involve a major rethink. God the utterly indifferent, the prime mover, the eternal architect who is NOT interested in the minute details of the creation is not much different from a godless universe as far as the consequences for each of us living in the universe. It is a personally interested deity that creates major consequences as far as we are each concerned, and that is a much shakier proposition. Yes! Exactly! Thank you
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Post by hawksblood1 on Feb 23, 2012 1:33:59 GMT
There is one big difference in the word belief and truth. You can believe in anything you want. That still doesn't make it ture. Truth is something you proved to yourself and it really doesn't matter if anyone else knows it. Because in general they will not agree totally under any conditions.
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