Bayes
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Post by Bayes on Feb 15, 2012 8:31:07 GMT
J K Rowling writes fiction. She's not a philosopher. A better example would be Ayn Rand or L Ron Hubbard, both representatives of certain belief systems. Their fiction is a blatant endorsement of their belief systems, much as Dawkin's non-fiction is.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 15, 2012 8:36:44 GMT
Endorsement is different from preaching.
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Bayes
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Posts: 206
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Post by Bayes on Feb 15, 2012 8:58:58 GMT
But they are still representatives of their belief systems. Other examples would be Karl Marx, Adam Smith, or Aleister Crowley. Crowley certainly did not invent Occultism, most Occultists disagree with him, but he still represents Occultism. Dawkins did not invent Atheism, the majority of Atheists disagree with him, but he still represents Atheism.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 15, 2012 11:01:49 GMT
But they are still representatives of their belief systems. Other examples would be Karl Marx, Adam Smith, or Aleister Crowley. Crowley certainly did not invent Occultism, most Occultists disagree with him, but he still represents Occultism. Dawkins did not invent Atheism, the majority of Atheists disagree with him, but he still represents Atheism. Yes, but I am arguing against him being a representative. I am asking why Worldquest thinks he is a preacher.
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Post by Worldquest on Feb 15, 2012 13:10:13 GMT
Dawkins' motivation for writing his books and giving his talks is to get people to reject theism and become atheists. That's what his books and talks are about. He doesn't do it to entertain, he wants everyone to be atheists. He's a preacher.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 16, 2012 4:36:09 GMT
Dawkins' motivation for writing his books and giving his talks is to get people to reject theism and become atheists. That's what his books and talks are about. He doesn't do it to entertain, he wants everyone to be atheists. He's a preacher. I am not asking for his motivation. For someone who keeps reminding me that I am not omniscient, you seem remarkably certain as to what Dawkin's motivations are. How do you know? I am asking you to present just one statement from him which can be classified as peachy ,i.e, where he tried to convert actively everyone to his point of view. I can present my point of view, that does not make me a preacher. I have not seen any statement from Dawkins where he tried to convert people to atheism. I have seen him present his views. So I am asking you again, present some actual proof that he is a preacher. This is a public forum and people will question your statements and you must be prepared to back them up. Do not assume that everyone thinks as you do.
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Post by Worldquest on Feb 16, 2012 14:29:47 GMT
The proof that he is a preacher is the fact that spends so much of his time writing books and giving talks in which he tries to get people to reject theism and accept atheism as their worldview. What did you think his books and talks were for?
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Bayes
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Posts: 206
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Post by Bayes on Feb 16, 2012 18:12:24 GMT
That is the mission statement of Dawkin's foundation from his website richarddawkins.net that looks, pretty clearly, like it is his intention to spread a belief system.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 17, 2012 7:48:11 GMT
The proof that he is a preacher is the fact that spends so much of his time writing books and giving talks in which he tries to get people to reject theism and accept atheism as their worldview. What did you think his books and talks were for? Need an actual example. You cannot keep giving the same answer for different questions. Give me an example. That is all I am asking you to do.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 17, 2012 7:48:56 GMT
That is the mission statement of Dawkin's foundation from his website richarddawkins.net that looks, pretty clearly, like it is his intention to spread a belief system. Doesn't say anywhere that they are trying to preach atheism.
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Post by Worldquest on Feb 17, 2012 13:28:16 GMT
The proof that he is a preacher is the fact that spends so much of his time writing books and giving talks in which he tries to get people to reject theism and accept atheism as their worldview. What did you think his books and talks were for? Need an actual example. You cannot keep giving the same answer for different questions. Give me an example. That is all I am asking you to do. What did you think his books and talks were for?
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Bayes
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Posts: 206
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Post by Bayes on Feb 17, 2012 17:14:15 GMT
That is the mission statement of Dawkin's foundation from his website richarddawkins.net that looks, pretty clearly, like it is his intention to spread a belief system. Doesn't say anywhere that they are trying to preach atheism. we clearly interpret "overcoming religious fundamentalism and superstition" differently
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 18, 2012 17:57:20 GMT
Doesn't say anywhere that they are trying to preach atheism. we clearly interpret "overcoming religious fundamentalism and superstition" differently It says they support critical thinking,scientific education and evidence-based understanding of the natural world so that superstition and religious fundamentalism can be overcome. I don't see how supporting critical thinking and science can be classified as preaching atheism. Nowhere do they say they require people to convert to atheism. They objective is to educate people. There is a strong correlation between highly educated people and atheism. I think Dawkins believes that educating people is the only way to remove superstition. Once people are educated, they don't need anyone else's input to form their opinions on theism. Some people are educated and still believe in god. I think Dawkins is targeting education of the other 90% of people who lack the tools necessary for critical thinking. I have seen many of his documentaries. He never comes across as preachy IMO.
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Post by flyingteapot on Feb 18, 2012 18:03:13 GMT
Need an actual example. You cannot keep giving the same answer for different questions. Give me an example. That is all I am asking you to do. What did you think his books and talks were for? You still haven't answered my questions. I will answer your question when you answer mine. I think it is important to follow chronology in a debate.
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Bayes
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Posts: 206
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Post by Bayes on Feb 18, 2012 19:08:08 GMT
we clearly interpret "overcoming religious fundamentalism and superstition" differently It says they support critical thinking,scientific education and evidence-based understanding of the natural world so that superstition and religious fundamentalism can be overcome. I don't see how supporting critical thinking and science can be classified as preaching atheism. Nowhere do they say they require people to convert to atheism. They objective is to educate people. There is a strong correlation between highly educated people and atheism. I think Dawkins believes that educating people is the only way to remove superstition. Once people are educated, they don't need anyone else's input to form their opinions on theism. Some people are educated and still believe in god. I think Dawkins is targeting education of the other 90% of people who lack the tools necessary for critical thinking. I have seen many of his documentaries. He never comes across as preachy IMO. People tend to come across as less preachy when being heard by people who agree with their basic tenets. CS Lewis, for instance, seems awfully preachy to a non Christian but most Christians don't see it at all.
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