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Post by waymarker on Nov 30, 2011 20:03:45 GMT
Paul had to lay down some ground rules in the early churches by reminding some talkative women that they should tone it down a bit (1 Cor ch 14), and naturally anti-christians have seized on that to shout "christianity hates women!" But in context that's far from the truth.. The evangelist Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses; The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two prophetesses, Priscilla and Maximilla.. And Paul paid glowing tributes to women -"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me.. Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me. Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.. Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)And he reminds us - " There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )Jesus said "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:28 )Elsewhere too the Bible speaks for women's rights -"Control yourselves honourably, not in lust like the heathens" (1 Thess 4:4/5)"Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love.." (Ecc 9:9)
"A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.." (Proverbs 31)" "Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,and also some women... Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna; and many others" - Luke 8:1-3Jesus spent a terrible long night before his death,unable to sleep and racked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep, But next day on the cross, as he slipped into death his tired pain-filled eyes saw a host of loyal women who'd stuck with him to the end.. "Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed his last. There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Salome, who followed him and ministered to him when he was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem" (Mark 15:37)They gave him the last womanly comfort they could by making sure he never died alone..
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Post by waymarker on Nov 30, 2011 20:06:12 GMT
Some of the disciples hung back or ran off in fear of the Romans, but the women stuck with him to the end-
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Post by waymarker on Nov 30, 2011 20:09:13 GMT
It's almost as if he knew that they'd be there for him at the end, which is why he made a point of always being there for them throughout his life..
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Post by waymarker on Nov 30, 2011 20:13:56 GMT
Here's a little tale i've woven around a Bible incident in John chapter 4 involving a nameless woman- She had had a rough life. A string of lovers had treated her bad, and now she'd ended up with another here in this remote village in old Samaria miles from anywhere, going out of her skull with boredom and feeling as if life was passing her by. Then her latest fancy man shouted from the other room telling her to go get some water,so she trudged wearily down the road in the sweltering heat to the well. A few travellers who she'd never seen before were sitting there in the shade of the trees looking tired, yet good-humouredly talking among themselves, and one of them smiled and asked her in a Galileean accent to draw some water for them. She was surprised that a Jew would talk to a Samaritan , but he chatted a bit more with her about "living water" and other matters, and about her poor track record with men who used her like a doormat. She told him how she yearned for the bright lights of Jerusalem where things happened and where it said in the ancient scriptures the Messiah would appear, though if and when that would be, nobody knew. She said she liked to dream what he'd be like, a warrior king maybe, in bright silver armour riding a proud white horse, and that he'd explain everything to the people once and for all. "Huh! i'll never see the Messiah stuck out here" she said as a tear rolled down her cheek, "when i die that's it,nobody'll remember me or even know i existed, and he wouldn't want to talk to a nobody like me anyway..". The man gently brushed away her tear with his fingertips, lifted her chin, gazed straight into her eyes and softly replied with a smile:- "I'm him. He's talking to you now.."And the woman in that tiny remote village long ago will be remembered in the Bible until the end of time.. " The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." (John 4:26)
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Post by waymarker on Nov 30, 2011 20:20:28 GMT
Here's a little story i've woven around an incident involving a woman in Mark chapter 5 She had a good life in ancient Israel, she grew into a fine young woman, got married and had children, and was kind and friendly to all. Like everyone else, she knew the story of the young carpenter from Nazareth who the snooty priests had killed years before when she was just a little girl,and she often used to sit and think about him and wished she'd seen him. The years passed, and grey hairs began to appear. Her dear father died of old age, and then her mother became gravely ill. As she sat at her bedside holding her hand and talking to her, their conversation turned to years gone by. "Mum" she said, "you were a young woman when Jesus was alive,and i just wonder if you ever saw him?" Her mother looked up into her eyes and said with a gentle smile:- "Well yes, as a matter of fact he came to our town one day when you were just a little girl,but you wouldn't remember because you were...very ill.." "Wow mum!" she replied "and did you manage to catch a glimpse of him among all the crowds?" "Yes i did,in fact he came down our very street!" replied her mother. "Really?" she asked in wide-eyed astonishment. "Yes darling" answered her mother, "and as a matter of fact your dad ran out to him and asked him to come into our house" Hearing this, her jaw dropped in amazement. "Oh mum, thats fantastic!..I wish i hadn't been ill or i'd have remembered it, and i could have held his hand and talked to him!" "Darling" replied her mother tenderly, "I've never told you this before,but when he came in he held your hand and he spoke to you!" "Wow thats absolutely incredible mum!" she said in delight, "And what did he say to me?" Her mother looked into her beloved daughters eyes and replied:- "He said to you softly and gently 'Get up little girl'.." "Ooh and what happened then mum?" "You came back to life darling" answered her mum, "he brought you back to us.." Mark ch 5 - "He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" )
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B
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Post by B on Dec 1, 2011 6:39:27 GMT
First, nice job on glorifying Jesus in a good light with those stories while ignoring the more cooler stuff (Jesus facing down dragons, Jesus bullying the other children) and the more stupid stuff (Jesus stealing a donkey, Jesus killing a fig tree for not having fruit, Jesus not proclaiming slavery is evil, Jesus not performing actual miracles that could be verifiable centuries later, et cetera).
Second:
Did you just say that Paul had to put down talkative women by setting up harsh rules for women and in the same sentence say that people who criticize Christianity for repressing and objectifying women are wrong? Good start mate.
By the way, it's not just Paul. It's pretty much God as well 'cause you know how God LOVES them virgins being stoned to death for not being virgins on their day of marriage and decreed how man should hold authority over woman.
Okay? Women participating in cults/religions doesn't necessarily mean that they're not being repressed, controlled or harmed. In fact, it's funny how the Bible doesn't mention whether they had choices or not in growing up to be "prophetesses". I suppose it was indoctrination, similar to today.
I like this. I really do. But again like in other threads, you're ignoring significant portions of the Bible in favor of the good bits while avoiding the more damning bits (which is almost everything else).. from the same book (Galatians):
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Translation: Not alright to have anything else than Christianity preached to you, and the ones who preach (millions of clerics, priests and spiritual leaders of major world religions besides Christianity) are cursed.
Translation: Male puberty and getting a boner are sins!
Great! Except you forgot to mention these, including that last bit in Ecc 9:9:
(ECC 9:9) Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you under the sun. The wife God gives you is your reward for all your earthly toil.
Problem?
Oh and you forgot to put one part in when you cited 1 Thess 4:4/5:
that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; (1 Thess 4:4/5)
What is "honorable, what is "holy"? Is it the same holy manner in which the thousands of Catholic priests act, who have and continue to molest children? No thank you then.
Oh, and you forgot these as well:
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
ALL the days of her life? Jumping Jooligars.
Harem.
..Where exactly is this small story you've written yourself in the following verse you gave from the Bible?
Serious Question: Was Jesus a virgin?
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Post by waymarker on Dec 1, 2011 13:08:06 GMT
Hi 'B', Just to summarise your points:- 1-Jesus not proclaiming slavery is evil 2-you know how God LOVES them virgins being stoned to death for not being virgins on their day of marriage 3-and decreed how man should hold authority over woman. 4- Translation: Not alright to have anything else than Christianity preached to you, and the ones who preach (millions of clerics, priests and spiritual leaders of major world religions besides Christianity) are cursed. 5- What is "honorable, what is "holy"? Is it the same holy manner in which the thousands of Catholic priests act, who have and continue to molest children? No thank you then.
6- Serious Question: Was Jesus a virgin?--------------------------------------------------------------------- My replies- 1- Slavery. Moses killed an Egyptian slave-driver (Exo 2:11), and Paul condemned slavery (1 Tim 1:9). And remember the words 'slavery' and 'servant' are often interchangeable in the bible, so a 'slave' in many instances might simply be the butler or janitor etc. 2- Jesus rescued that adulteress from the mob, so i don't know where you get the idea from that God wanted women stoned. If you mean in the Old T, remember Jesus gave us the New T (the clue is in the name) which does away with all that harsh stuff. 3- There are plenty of Christian women Vicars of Dibley around nowadays, nobody tries to put them down except oldfahioned fundy xians. Are you an oldfashioned fundy xian? 4- Of all the world's religions, only Christianity has Jesus the son of God in it, so all the others aren't worth a rats ass.. 5- Perverted Catholic priests are not Christians, they're just perverted Catholic priests.. 6- Nobody knows if Jesus was a virgin but it's not important. Some of the disciples were married men but who cares one way or the other?
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B
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Post by B on Dec 1, 2011 14:40:02 GMT
Servants not being paid to work are generally slaves Way. And you did not address the issue of Jesus proclaiming slavery being evil so that Confederate states could not use the Bible as a supporting source for slavery in the future. In fact, Jesus could've done a lot of stuff or simply just said a few things that would have saved billions of humans from needless suffering.
Oh but wait, your omniscient God has a "plan" right? An unalterable, divine plan that requires humans to be raped, killed, devoured, imprisoned, tortured and so on by other humans and ultimately banishing people to hell for being the people they were supposed to be after they were made by God.
Great!
No, it does not.
Jesus said himself:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
OT is still valid mate. Thank goodness! I always have wanted to stone those damn Wal-Mart workers to death because they work on the Sabbath!
Clearly I was. But now I am not. And also, you'd be surprised how many people you wouldn't perceive as "oldfashioned fundies" would believe that women are inferior to men just because the Bible says so.
An incredible show of willful ignorance here. You just dismissed hundreds of cultures and religions around the world that are followed by billions of other humans in favor of one single religion out of millions that is clearly no better than any other religion out there.
No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Why is it not important? If Jesus actually married, that'd have huge implications for numerous churches and their doctrines. It would seem to them that Jesus was more man than god.
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Post by waymarker on Dec 1, 2011 23:05:16 GMT
Your points in black, my responses in red.. Jesus could've done a lot of stuff or simply just said a few things that would have saved billions of humans from needless suffering. Jesus wasn't a politician, he simply showed us how to use compassion and commonsense in our daily lives- "The law was given by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17) Oh but wait, your omniscient God has a "plan" right? An unalterable, divine plan that requires humans to be raped, killed, devoured, imprisoned, tortured and so on by other humans and ultimately banishing people to hell for being the people they were supposed to be after they were made by God. Jesus gave them the free choice to change. If they choose NOT to change, then they get slung into hell, seems fair to me..Jesus said himself: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Nevertheless he trashed the ancient 'eye for an eye' law and the 'stone adulteresses' law. Like I said, he left the harsh old rules in place but trusted to our compassion and commonsense not to follow them.OT is still valid mate. Thank goodness! I always have wanted to stone those damn Wal-Mart workers to death because they work on the Sabbath! I've been penpalling with a witch for 14 years and we get on fine, but if you think i should burn her at the stake, i will..you'd be surprised how many people you wouldn't perceive as "oldfashioned fundies" would believe that women are inferior to men just because the Bible says so. I don't give a rat's ass what fundy xians believe..If Jesus actually married, that'd have huge implications for numerous churches and their doctrines. It would seem to them that Jesus was more man than god. And I don't give a rat's ass about the doctrines of Organised Religion..
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B
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Post by B on Dec 2, 2011 12:21:25 GMT
I can see that you're just going to rationalize in place of non-existent answers that wouldn't dodge the issues I throw at you.
Anyway, one huge flaw in your "free will" 'argument'; God is omniscient according to most Christians and yet despite the incompatibility of free will with omniscience, they (and it seems you as well) always argue that Jesus/God gives us "choices".
This idea of a god that's both omniscient and omnipotent (with the bonus of being "benevolent") is laughably contradictive and impossible.
Also, I lol'ed at your comment on Jesus not being a politician. So what? You don't have to be a politician to prevent suffering, do good or help others. Jesus had plenty of opportunities to criticize slavery and other revolting things that existed up to today thus possibly relieving huge amounts of unnecessary suffering.
Unsurprisingly, such things were not criticized by this Jesus character and still were/are supported by many Christians as a result.
And no, Jesus did not abolish any laws nor taught people how to use "common sense". Sure he gave some lessons revolutionary for his time (love your enemy, turn the other cheek, et cetera) but he did not do any significant work that produced a little amount of "good" for humanity. Again, he came to fulfill and uphold the laws of the Old Testament. Nowhere in the Bible says what you think it says.
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Post by waymarker on Dec 2, 2011 23:04:50 GMT
After curing people, Jesus often told them to pull their socks up, thereby giving them the free choice to do so, nothing is pre-destined.. As for slavery and other social injustices, he wasn't a social worker, he left it to his followers own commonsense to know what's right and wrong without him having to spell it out. For example he never mentioned paedophilia either, but we all know it's wrong, we don't need him to tell us.. Like I said before, i've been penpalling with a witch even though the Old T says i should kill her, but nobody pays any attention to that old harsh nonsense nowadays.. Look- "Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 ) "Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39) "The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13) "Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3) "We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6) "The epistle of Christ,written not in stone, but in the heart" (2 Cor 3:3) "The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17) "The veil covers the old covenant,but is removed by Jesus" (2 Cor 3:12) "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30) "The law brought us to Christ like a schoolmaster,but now through Christ we are not under that schoolmaster" (Gal 3:22-25)
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Post by ksen on Dec 6, 2011 17:56:27 GMT
Waymarker, this is a pretty dumb thread.
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Post by waymarker on Dec 8, 2011 14:13:55 GMT
Waymarker, this is a pretty dumb thread. Don't you like girls?.. Which bit of this is dumb?- "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )
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B
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Post by B on Dec 9, 2011 17:10:14 GMT
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
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Post by waymarker on Dec 24, 2011 10:28:07 GMT
1 Corinthians 11:3- "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" etc etc Think context mate or we'll think you're a braindead fundy literalist.. Some noisy nagging chatterbox women in the early churches were using the places as drop-in centres so of course Paul had to tell them to stop their yapping! He had no beef with sensible women which is why he said- "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )
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